Rendered at 18:42:30 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Cloudflare Workers.
sakesun 18 hours ago [-]
Wonder if this will become common practice from now on ?
> Pull requests are disabled. Coding agents make it too easy to send a large,
> low-context change that costs maintainers more time than it saves.
> Thoughtful contributions are welcome; please understand the code,
> keep the patch focused, and respect the review time you are asking for.
>
> Send a git format-patch attachment to ...
> At this time, we are not seeking outside contribution.
> AI has made writing code easy. The hard part, today, is not writing the code, but reviewing it, making sure quality stays high, and keeping the product coherent. In that light, unfortunately, external code contributions are "donating" the easy part of the job, while creating more of the hard work.
Feels very weird, but is logically sound: owners know exactly what they want and so they can work with Claude et al to iterate on features faster than with most drive-by contributors.
It reads like an "end of an era" but I imagine the steady state will be somewhere in the middle: high trust, high context contributors will still be able to contribute meaningful work.
aitchnyu 9 hours ago [-]
Could be done by an Openclaw agent named Jarvis.
dbmikus 17 hours ago [-]
time to bring back the dev email distribution list
7bit 8 hours ago [-]
Deargodplsnooo... Meme
szmarczak 10 hours ago [-]
I wonder if the code was written by AI?
rtpg 11 hours ago [-]
Could someone explain to me in practice how one would use these to do… a thing? Like a straightforward use case? Having trouble figuring out what these are for
workerd is missing the scheduler - the thing that allows it to operate across nodes. Durable Object storage are just local sqlite databases.
celld is the full distributed system (albeit single tenant). It distributes DOs (cells) across any number of VMs. The databases for each DO are in object storage with RPO=0 guarantee.
kentonv 20 hours ago [-]
You beat us to it! Been meaning to land this but got distracted.
But honestly I love that there are multiple implementations now.
jitl 17 hours ago [-]
bummer this expects NFS; this is all a brand new implementation vs what Cloudflare runs internally in production for DOs? I can’t imagine all your workerds share a single global NFS… What would a more realistic workerd with DO support look like?
ah well, we have celld!
kentonv 16 hours ago [-]
Honestly, you wouldn't want to run our internal implementation -- it's far too complicated. Unless you have 100+ datacenters around the world -- then maybe.
The goal of this new design is to scale to a cluster while being operationally very easy to set up. Ideal for self-hosting.
NFSv4 is an easy first step, convenient because it's broadly understood, has many implementations, and requires no client libraries. I could imagine a follow-up to support LiteFS instead of NFS could make a lot of sense, though it'll get more complicated.
But yes, celld is definitely ahead of us here. No doubt about that.
Wish there were more performance related benchmarks that compare this to cloudflare durable objects.
khalidx 21 hours ago [-]
Finally!
So happy to see support for running durable objects outside of one provider. Upvoted.
The "durable object" concept has been repeatably demonstrated to be a valuable abstraction.
"Each object is its own SQLite database, addressed by name and replicated to an S3-compatible bucket you own" -- this concept can take you a long way, both in its power and simplicity.
Ryan & the Deno team thanks for this. not that I'm going to use it anytime soon - but yeah having durable objects outside Cloudflare and also self hosted ones means a lot.
jumploops 18 hours ago [-]
I recently spun up a simple app for our annual mango tasting event[0] using Cloudflare Workers and Durable Objects.
It worked really well! Excited to see more options outside of Cloudflare.
I like it! Would be great if I could run locally from the start without configuring an s3 for easy playing/prototyping
wmf 21 hours ago [-]
Maybe Wrangler is a better way to do that.
myshapeprotocol 18 hours ago [-]
Self-hosted and distributed durable objects are a huge step forward for maintaining reliable state across decentralized nodes. Great architecture!
vmg12 22 hours ago [-]
All we need is a way to run these on spot instances
wmf 22 hours ago [-]
I don't see why not. Somebody once wrote a simple Lambda that spawns a new instance when your spot instance dies so there's always at least one running.
jauntywundrkind 24 hours ago [-]
Well that couldn't have been any more timely. Did they know? Were they keeping this in a back pocket for the time?
It's super super exciting having an age where many pieces of software can all run with low profiles. Very timely, again, for the unbelievably order of magnitude (and thats 10 to the not 2 to the, for you fellow computer nerds) ish ram crunch we are in. Next up, at some point, ideally we get some v8-like runtimes where we can share libraries across multiple isolates! Separating the shared code from the shared data, so we have multiple instances of the library, seems much harder. (It feels like wasm has some/much promise here and I eagerly await clearer signals that code-sharing while sandboxing is indeed possible)
reactordev 22 hours ago [-]
Now you’re getting into the realm of old SOA… where data exchanges are just as stochastic as services on the pipe.
wartywhoa23 22 hours ago [-]
The order of magnitude of this is simply mindblowing.
tdrz 16 hours ago [-]
> Next up, at some point, ideally we get some v8-like runtimes where we can share libraries across multiple isolates!
Hey, is this something that compares to Temporal or Restate or Azure Durable Functions? If so, what are the differences and when would I use Cells instead of the aforementioned?
jiveturkey 16 hours ago [-]
claim is that very many things are not needed, but they are. they are just provided by the layer beneath (S3). so isn't correctness highly dependent on s3 correctness? was s3 built for that, vs just plain durability? for example, would it be just as reliable with minio?
i would prefer a thing that was more self-contained, not dependent on a black box service layer underneath.
much apologies if i just have a poor understanding.
mrkeen 6 hours ago [-]
I think you might be asking too much when it comes to correctness.
It's like fixing all the problems with democracy by putting everyone in charge of their own 1-person election.
20 hours ago [-]
zuzululu 22 hours ago [-]
i donno...i have some doubts about this
cloudflare gives you that instant geo-sync across the world that is hard to beat
with Celld do i need to buy bare metal in major continents
jitl 17 hours ago [-]
> cloudflare
the stuff is great when it works but Durable Objects can be quite expensive. whenever i get too excited about em all it takes is a little time trying to price it out to calm me down.
it’s not “region: earth” like cloudflare but perhaps worth the trade off.
weego 6 hours ago [-]
spinning up multiple eks clusters is ridiculously expensive by comparison to paying for durable objects on demand.
jitl 2 hours ago [-]
it’s all relative and it really depends on your scale. if your usage fits in the included compute and request count you get for $60/yr it’s absolutely gonna be cheaper. on the other hand, you can run EKS clusters in usw2, use2, apne1, apne2, euc1 for $8600/yr based on my napkin math. to me that does not sound expensive, i work at a company where $8600 is pocket change. but $8600 is much larger than $60/yr for region: earth.
wmf 21 hours ago [-]
With apologies to Obama, if you like Cloudflare you can keep your Cloudflare. It looks like celld is not intended to be an exact clone of Cloudflare but is for someone who wants to run a bunch of workers in a single region.
vmg12 22 hours ago [-]
Geo-sync? I'm pretty sure durable objects are tied to the datacenter they are created in.
zuzululu 22 hours ago [-]
nothing beats cloudflare's reach they have nodes everywhere
thats hard to beat
benatkin 20 hours ago [-]
If it were intended to be a direct alternative for the biggest use case, I think it would be more like Cloudflare Workers and Durable Objects. However, I think it's an alternative for a lot of uses of those two things. For a lot of uses of them, likely most uses, they are overkill.
So where it's overkill, this is where Celld is a good fit. It's a 100% open play, despite mentioning three hosted APIs: S3, Cloudflare Workers, and Durable Objects. The thing is, that Deno tried making similar ones. Deno Deploy is analagous to S3, and Deno KV is analagous to Durable Objects. However, with Celld the only dependencies are being able to run a binary and some S3-compatible storage. Cloudflare provides S3 compatible storage, but this README doesn't mention that, except in an example. Perhaps Ryan is leaving the door open for Deno to be acquired by Cloudflare.
on the one hand, hosting is hard, you should pay people to host, especially distributed systems.
on the other hand, deno land folks stole from (used open source from) the best. the coordination layer/control-plane is all S3 CAS of dumb json files, which is a fantastic common-mode infra requirement for most orgs anyways, & perhaps a durable control-plane substrate you'd feel comfortable having someone else run (such as aws or others), while you run the data-plane (workers) yourself. and then for the durable objects themselves, they used litestream, which is a pretty top pick, excellent way to get radical distribution (but actual topology not included, some assembly required)! https://hn.algolia.com/?q=litestream
there's no reason this wouldn't run fine on most hosting, you definitely don't need bare metal. the virtues of v8 sandboxing / isolates! no need for vm's at all, no nested vm difficulties if you are trying to host on a shared host! but if you're asking questions like this, i want to again point you back to my top point.
q3k 22 hours ago [-]
> addressed by name and replicated to an S3-compatible bucket you own; nodes coordinate through that bucket alone, with no control plane or consensus
... but that S3 _is_ the control plane and consensus layer, no? You're just pushing this down the stack to whoever runs that S3 clone.
jitl 16 hours ago [-]
sure, but s3 is far easier to buy and also far more reliable than typical distributed systems coordinator stuff like etcd/zookeeper/consul. every major cloud offers it, and there’s several decent open source options.
srvraw 6 hours ago [-]
I haven't deep-dived into celld. Does it requires s3's strong consistency to be correct? or is any s3 api compatible object storage sufficient even if they lack strong consistency guarantee?
> At this time, we are not seeking outside contribution.
> AI has made writing code easy. The hard part, today, is not writing the code, but reviewing it, making sure quality stays high, and keeping the product coherent. In that light, unfortunately, external code contributions are "donating" the easy part of the job, while creating more of the hard work.
Feels very weird, but is logically sound: owners know exactly what they want and so they can work with Claude et al to iterate on features faster than with most drive-by contributors.
It reads like an "end of an era" but I imagine the steady state will be somewhere in the middle: high trust, high context contributors will still be able to contribute meaningful work.
More practical example (serverless WebSockets) https://youtu.be/FgWVoryZ8PU
https://github.com/cloudflare/workerd
celld is the full distributed system (albeit single tenant). It distributes DOs (cells) across any number of VMs. The databases for each DO are in object storage with RPO=0 guarantee.
https://github.com/cloudflare/workerd/pull/6780
But honestly I love that there are multiple implementations now.
ah well, we have celld!
The goal of this new design is to scale to a cluster while being operationally very easy to set up. Ideal for self-hosting.
NFSv4 is an easy first step, convenient because it's broadly understood, has many implementations, and requires no client libraries. I could imagine a follow-up to support LiteFS instead of NFS could make a lot of sense, though it'll get more complicated.
But yes, celld is definitely ahead of us here. No doubt about that.
So happy to see support for running durable objects outside of one provider. Upvoted.
The "durable object" concept has been repeatably demonstrated to be a valuable abstraction.
"Each object is its own SQLite database, addressed by name and replicated to an S3-compatible bucket you own" -- this concept can take you a long way, both in its power and simplicity.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...
It worked really well! Excited to see more options outside of Cloudflare.
[0]https://github.com/jumploops/mangotango
CloudFlare OS: https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-os/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49182996
And yes, celld is isolates! The very lightweight within v8 isolation boundary. Hence the "very low idle cost". The deno team rolled their own new runtime! This one without deno_core! Shout out to this excellent 2022 post: https://deno.com/blog/roll-your-own-javascript-runtime https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35819990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35819990
It's super super exciting having an age where many pieces of software can all run with low profiles. Very timely, again, for the unbelievably order of magnitude (and thats 10 to the not 2 to the, for you fellow computer nerds) ish ram crunch we are in. Next up, at some point, ideally we get some v8-like runtimes where we can share libraries across multiple isolates! Separating the shared code from the shared data, so we have multiple instances of the library, seems much harder. (It feels like wasm has some/much promise here and I eagerly await clearer signals that code-sharing while sandboxing is indeed possible)
I'm probably missing your point, but aren't wasm memories achieving exactly this? Just an example from wasmtime: https://docs.wasmtime.dev/examples-multimemory.html
i would prefer a thing that was more self-contained, not dependent on a black box service layer underneath.
much apologies if i just have a poor understanding.
It's like fixing all the problems with democracy by putting everyone in charge of their own 1-person election.
cloudflare gives you that instant geo-sync across the world that is hard to beat
with Celld do i need to buy bare metal in major continents
the stuff is great when it works but Durable Objects can be quite expensive. whenever i get too excited about em all it takes is a little time trying to price it out to calm me down.
> do i need to buy bare metal
my first idea would be to run celld on AWS Kubernetes deployed to local zones https://docs.aws.amazon.com/eks/latest/userguide/auto-local-...
it’s not “region: earth” like cloudflare but perhaps worth the trade off.
thats hard to beat
So where it's overkill, this is where Celld is a good fit. It's a 100% open play, despite mentioning three hosted APIs: S3, Cloudflare Workers, and Durable Objects. The thing is, that Deno tried making similar ones. Deno Deploy is analagous to S3, and Deno KV is analagous to Durable Objects. However, with Celld the only dependencies are being able to run a binary and some S3-compatible storage. Cloudflare provides S3 compatible storage, but this README doesn't mention that, except in an example. Perhaps Ryan is leaving the door open for Deno to be acquired by Cloudflare.
FWIW here's an old Deno blog post comparing Durable Objects to other stuff: https://denoland.medium.com/deno-kv-vs-cloudflare-workers-kv...
on the other hand, deno land folks stole from (used open source from) the best. the coordination layer/control-plane is all S3 CAS of dumb json files, which is a fantastic common-mode infra requirement for most orgs anyways, & perhaps a durable control-plane substrate you'd feel comfortable having someone else run (such as aws or others), while you run the data-plane (workers) yourself. and then for the durable objects themselves, they used litestream, which is a pretty top pick, excellent way to get radical distribution (but actual topology not included, some assembly required)! https://hn.algolia.com/?q=litestream
there's no reason this wouldn't run fine on most hosting, you definitely don't need bare metal. the virtues of v8 sandboxing / isolates! no need for vm's at all, no nested vm difficulties if you are trying to host on a shared host! but if you're asking questions like this, i want to again point you back to my top point.
... but that S3 _is_ the control plane and consensus layer, no? You're just pushing this down the stack to whoever runs that S3 clone.